Results 1 to 8 of 8
Thread: Crafting & Gathering Design Ideas
  1. #1
    Royal Guardian Anarky's Avatar
    Posts
    2,849
    Server
    US1
    Chars
    US1 (Armageddon, Anarky, Korruption, Execution) US2 (Kayaus, Sinizter, Extinction) EU1 (Vyrus)

    Crafting & Gathering Design Ideas

    I’ve been working on this post for around a month now. I realize that my proposition below isn't really that good of an idea but that is not the point. The goal is to instead start a discussion and initiate some brainstorming within the community. So please don't bash on this idea and point out the many obvious flaws! Instead, add ideas and alterations of your own. There is a serious problem with crafting / gathering. Crafting lacks depth and grinding is a literal auto-clicker grind. As the level cap increases this will only become more apparent. In the past the Devs have placed band-aids upon the issue by lowering the EXP required to level, and adding EXP boosting potions and enchantments. However underneath it all the issue still festers, and we need to get to the root of the problem in order to solve it. Read what I’ve written with an open mind, add your thoughts and ideas as well. Perhaps we can help shape the future of the Villager half of the game.

    Introduction


    A couple of years ago the Developers removed Vim and introduced Supplies. What was once an energy system with specific limitations turned into strategic resource management and manipulation. However from an overall perspective this did little to change the core of Crafting & Gathering, instead this simply fixed the present Vim issues and added a different face upon the product. Being able to bottle up your Vim and use it for later would arguably have had a similar effect as the entire overhaul. I understand why this was done, Vim already had a negative stigma associated with it and the developers needed to introduce something that appeared fresh. However, the fundamental design of Crafting & Gathering has changed little over the years. Below is a brief break-down of our current system.

    Resources

    This is what the Vim overhaul really was. Rather than using X Vim per click, you are now using X supply or mote. Crafting has lost all sense of strategy, whereas before you had to choose between 1 and 50 crafts and the amount of resources used would scale depending on that number, now if you have 50 motes.. you just use them? There is no point for any number in-between 1 and your current maximum mote count in terms of rapid crafting. Gathering has changed into a system with different supply rarities. While gathering you have a chance to gain supplies from the currently used skill as well as another. This forms a circular system of diminishing returns where players can draw out the span of time before their resources are depleted. Consuming the correct buffs and using facilities to their maximum potential yield greater results, however not many new players are aware of either of these conveniences until much later in the game. On the surface this follows the same concept of Vim, yet has greater depth, strategy and potential if tweaked correctly. All of this does not matter though, unless the next point of discussion is changed.

    Progression

    What is the main purpose of crafting and gathering? Well you gather so you can craft... and you craft so you can construct gear and buffs. The issue is that Gear only accounts for 10% of crafting. The other 90% is the mass production of refined materials in order to meet level requirements. Crafting & Gathering follow a progression scheme similar to combat. Gain experience by performing various tasks and once a specific number is met, you level up which gives you the ability to craft or gather new materials. This is all well and good except for the fact that this should be done alongside of combat. That is, raising 8 skills on par with 1. If your combat outpaces your crafting, you can no longer create the items you need yourself, and must rely on others with higher skills to manufacture said items for you. This contradicts the entire reason behind crafting in the first place, and causes some players to limit their combat in an attempt to catch up with skills or out-level their skills and then bring them up pointlessly as an afterthought. However, we must delve even deeper in order to get to the crux of the problem. Grinding. There is a reason why the vast majority of the V&H population uses auto-clickers. Gathering has become a monotonous grind of clicking on a single node for hours, then converting it into refined materials within minutes. There is hardly any strategy involved in the actual process of crafting. While resource management provides some sort of depth, making thousands of beams to hit a level so you can make even more beams is not the type of crafting system I signed up for. There are a few solutions that can be implemented to counteract the current bot-friendly environment. Not by making it difficult to auto-click, but rather by removing the necessity of using an auto-clicker in the first place. Back in the days of Vim there was a sense of satisfaction for each level gained due to the reward system. Nowadays all we get is a little light show and a reminder that we're back at the left side of the XP bar. Part of the addictive nature of an MMO’s progression system is the constant stream of rewards once certain goals are met. There is nothing satisfying at all in V&H’s system. The prime culprit for the grind right now is gathering. Harvesting 1 or 2 materials at a time (or 2-5 with a gathering hat) for around the same XP at level 1 or 79 is mind boggling. The only difference in gathering efficiency comes through the utilization of buffs and the meager benefits of upgraded tools. Every 10 levels I believe there should be a significant upgrade to one’s gathering stats to warrant the sharp rise in EXP required to level. The question becomes, how long should it take for someone to maximize their skills? Through what process would this occur? I find that even if the efficiency of my gathering were increased, I would likely still use a clicker unless the foundation of the crafting system were changed as well. The problem with progression is needing thousands of materials to convert into its refined counterpart. In order to create a good crafting system, you need to start from the foundation. Which is why I will be suggesting a crafting & gathering system starting from the ground up. Taking inspiration from various models to create something that could be entertaining for all types of players.

    Proposed System


    Purpose

    The first step is deciding what the purpose of the revised crafting system is. V&H is a combat centralized game, where crafting is a major component towards excelling in that field. There is little else that can be done with crafting besides use it as a form to create powerful gear and boosts, so that is what we will continue to use it for. Hopefully in the future crafting can be used as a means of creating furniture for homes, or traps for personalized dungeons. There are many different paths this game-play pillar can take, and it would result in a more interesting and diverse V&H if those angles were explored. For now though, we will continue to use crafting as a means of gear construction.

    Progression

    The next step is creating a progression and rewards mechanic. Players reach goals that reward and therefore motivate them to meet the next one. Currently the leveling scheme is based off of grinding for experience in order to unlock new recipes. I have already explained earlier how this does more harm than good. In this new system, instead of levels it will be based on tiers. When a crafter or gatherer accomplishes specific tasks, they will earn the next tier in the ladder. Higher tiers allow access to special recipes and modifier unlocks to gear. This rewards hard-working crafters and establishes a system of motivation for up and coming ones. This will not create an imbalance however, and that will be elaborated on below.

    Resources

    This is where gathering comes into play. The goal is for Gathering to involve less grinding and more exploration, discovery and strategy. How does gathering work right now? Well players gather items of specific levels and convert them into their refined versions in order to gain EXP in a crafting profession. Gathering is also used for ingredients in crafting. This usually involves gathering hundreds of thousands of materials to reach level cap. That is too much! In the proposed system gathering will continue to be used as a component towards crafting gear, but not in the way you imagine. Gathering materials will also lose their levels. There is no level 1 or level 60 anymore, everything is just leveless. This means that Gathering skill progression will be based on Tiers rather than levels, so anyone can gather anything. So what will gathering be for? Well.. ingredients for gear. But it is a lot more open-ended than that. Rather than requiring specific materials in order to create an item, Gear will be a blank template and the types of items you place into the empty slots will determine the product. Before we get into that, we will discuss how nodes work. Gathering nodes will be spread across all the zones in the game. Since materials no longer follow a level system, gathering is more thematic rather than linear. What I mean by this is, you will find a specific type of ore in a zone that would suit said ore. Maybe Obsidian can be found in a level 80 zone, maybe it can also be found in a level 10 zone. Gathering is no longer about levels, it is about theme. When a player gathers from a node, they will gain only a specific material (No more multiple items per node). There is a very slight chance that a player will gather a Tier 2 version of that material from that node. (Think about the rarity of acorns / effluxes). It will be even more rare to gather a Tier 3 version of that material from that node (Think about the rarity of luckinuem, scornyx). These Tier 2 and Tier 3 materials are essentially the Shiny / Glistening variants in terms of appearance, but now have much different functionality. Gathering materials are placed into modification slots when manufacturing gear. Materials are classified like so:

    Gathering will continue to have Wood, Ore, Fish and Bugs. However, now each of these classes represents an overall stat that will be added to the gear during the construction process.
    Wood: Attack
    Ore: Defense
    Fish: Mana
    Bugs: Health

    Following the class is the type. Is it Obsidian? Is it Nickel? Is it Copper? Likewise, is it Rosewood, Alder or Pine? When placed into a modification slot each of these has a unique effect, based on their classes overall stat. So while Obsidian and Nickel are both Ore, and therefore classified as Defense, they do not result in the same stat. Obsidian may add Physical defense, while Nickel could add Blocking chance. Both are classified as a defensive stat, but they have different effects in battle. It is up to the player to try out each material to figure out what stat they represent.

    The next step in classification is the rarity. This is the Shiny, Glistening variants that I mentioned above. When gathering from a node there is a slight chance to gather a Shiny (Tier 2) version of an item, and an even slighter chance for a Glistening (Tier 3) version. The better their tier, the more powerful the stat boost becomes. While a Tier 1 Wood may add + 100 of a particular stat, the Tier 2 version could be + 125 and the Tier 3 + 175.

    Gathering Tiers

    So, if materials are no longer sorted by levels, then how do one raise their gathering skill rank? In order to rank up in your gathering, you are tasked with completing a series of tasks. Remember that materials themselves are not locked behind any sort of level. Gaining higher tiers in gathering provides benefits to the gatherer similar to how buffs currently work in-game. Ranks are individual to each of the 4 skill lines (Plants, Ores, Bugs, Fish) as well. An example of some of the tasks needed to rank up are located below:
    • Discover X materials
    • Gather X materials
    • Gather X Tier 2 / 3 materials
    • Gather from X Mythic Nodes


    This results in a progression system that is not based on Experience. Rather players achieve their Tiers by performing in various tasks. Yes, there will be grinding involved, there will always be grinding involved in an MMO, but now it is more spread out, it is less simplistic than clicking on the highest level node you can until you level up. There is a bit more strategy involved, and more player action rather than inaction. Once a player achieves all of their set tasks, they rank up, and have a new updated list of tasks in order to gain their next rank. The beauty of the system is players are no longer forced to gain ranks in order to craft gear. A rank 1 gatherer can make top-notch gear, it will take longer definitely, but it is possible. Ranks now reward crafters who put in time and effort by granting them boots and buffs.

    An example of some of the benefits gatherers gain by increasing in rank are located below:
    • Gather +X materials per click
    • Higher chance of gathering Tier 2 / 3 materials
    • Gathering speed increased by X%
    • The ability to convert Tier 1 materials into Tier 2 and Tier 2 into Tier 3 (For a cost)
    • A radar to help find Mythic Nodes


    Mythic Nodes

    Similar to how Zingara are rare randomly spawned monsters with great rewards, Mythic Nodes are random nodes that appear rarely throughout the realms. These nodes only last for a limited amount of time before they vanish. Gathering from these nodes has a 100% chance of yielding Tier 3 materials.

    Gear

    So how does gear actually work? First we need to establish the different types of gear. Every class has the following gear slots: Helm, Chest, Gloves, Boots, Weapon, Secondary Weapon OR Shield. We will not worry about accessories for now (Necklace, Rings). In the existing crafting system all gear is essentially the same whether it is level 1 or level 79. The difference is the potency of the stats and the visual of the piece. The utility and attachments (runes) remain constant, although their power scales with level. I am not in favor of this type of progression mechanic. It is too linear and allows for little customization. Instead in the system I am proposing, all class recipes are unlocked right from the start. Yes you heard that correctly. However there is no level 1 sword and level 79 sword. There is just “sword”. There is just “mace”. There is just “Robe”. There is no level attached to them. So what differentiates low level gear, with high level gear? That will all be explained in detail below. For now, I will explain how the process of creation will work. Imagine you’re about to craft a sword. You enter the crafting window and see a blank sword, no level, ingredients or abilities. Instead there are a number of empty slots which are called “Modification slots”. Players place items into the slots in order to add stats to the gear. The number of slots available to you is based off of your Crafting Tier. The higher your tier, the more slots you have access to. In this scenario we will assume the player is the highest tier and has access to all features. Our hypothetical player is about to create a sword. There is an image of a sword, and the rest of the slots are blank. It is a template, and it is up to the player to fill it.
    There are 6 Slots reserved for gathering materials. What do you wish to put in them?

    In the first slot we place some Obsidian. Ore lies in the defense class. This will add blocking chance to your sword. Hmm that’s not what I wish. Instead I’ll place some Copper. Copper is an ore and also in the defense class. This material gives the sword a deflection chance. The chance is smaller than blocking, however a portion of the damage is deflected towards the opponent. Sounds good.

    In the second slot we decide to place some Wood, which falls under the damage class. We use Alder. This wood grants a stat that gives the sword a chance to inflict fire damage for each hit.

    In the third slot we place some fish which is in the mana class. We use proudfish, this fish gives the sword a stat that reduces mana usage. Hmmm we try another fish, perhaps Triggerfish. Aha! This fish gives the sword a random chance to use no mana when using an ability.

    In the final slots we place Cutworms (health regeneration stat), Oak (Critical Strike Chance), Bristlewood (Bonus Physical Damage)

    The next slot is an appearance slot. What will the gear piece look like? These can be discovered and achieved in ways explained below. Once a player has unlocked an appearance for a piece of gear, they will have it forever and can alter it as they desire (for a small gold fee of course).

    Next is time to add runes (abilities and spells). In this system runes are crafted and placed individually on gear rather than pre-existing. You’ve been preparing and already have 8 ability runes ready. You place them onto the weapon.

    Your weapon is now complete. You hit confirm and you got your sword!

    Gear Scaling

    One of the most important features of this proposed system is Gear Scaling. When a piece of gear is created, it is unbound and without a level. As soon as a player equips it the Gear will automatically scale to their level. Stats and power will adjust to that range. Gear automatically have base stats, weapons automatically have default damage and armor automatically has default armor. When that gear is equipped the numbers scale to correspond to the player’s level. Any items placed into modification slots that also increase damage / armor act as bonuses to existing ones. This system ensures that Non-Crafters can purchase gear from any source and judge it based on its tier, not its level. This also allows a level 1 player to provide gear to a level 90 player as the Gear will scale to 90 once equipped. In the tutorial of the game players are tasked with assembling their first arsenal. After doing so, they can choose to simply wear this gear forever. They’ll be average players with decent stats. Nothing special, but the point is that the Gear scales. When a player rebirths, their gear follows them. This creates a bond and a connection between a player and their gear. Players can also name their weapons and perform amazing feats with them.

    Crafting Tiers

    We have already elaborated on Gathering tasks and Tiers. Now we will do an overview for crafting. For a crafter to increase their rank, they also have to complete a checklist of tasks. These can include:
    • Craft X Pieces of Gear
    • Discover X Recipes
    • Craft a Gear piece of rank X or higher


    When a player meets these requirements, their rank increase and they are given a new checklist of requirements. Once again, the important part to note is that even a Rank 1 crafter can make gear for a level 90 combat player due to Gear Scaling and the fact that recipes do not have levels. The point of ranking up is instead to grant boosts to dedicated crafters such as the ones listed below:
    • Craft X% Faster
    • Unlock additional modification slots / ability rune slots
    • Unlock special recipes


    Recipes

    While everyone has instant access to their class’s basic Gear recipes, an important part of crafting is unlocking new recipes. Imagine if there were only a handful of players who had discovered a particular recipe you were interested in? Imagine if you had a few rare recipes of your own up your sleeve. Having a limited recipe system promotes trade, bargains and auctions. No one can “have it all”, but what you don’t have others may be willing to trade for what you do own. Recipes can be a variety of things. Perhaps a recipe that combines 2 specific gathering materials into one, so players can place said material into a modification slot and gain both stats! Recipes can also change how our abilities work. Now that ability runes are crafted items they also have their own modification slots. For example, when crafting the ability rune Inferno for the Wizard class, a particular crafter may have unlocked a modification recipe that increases the range of the Inferno. Another crafter may have discovered a recipe that adds a burning chance to all enemies within range of the attack. There are many different ways to acquire recipes:

    • Specialized Class Recipes: These are unlocked right from the start
    • Unified Class Recipes: These are unlocked when 2, 3 or 4 of your crafting skills have all met the same minimum rank requirement.
    • Vendor Recipe: Special recipes from limited time vendors or realm vendors. By completing daily tasks and raising your worth in the faction’s eyes you will gain access to these exotic recipes.
    • Dropped Recipe: Special recipes from looted enemies and bosses. These recipes could be based on the bosses own weapons and design.
    • Discovery Recipe: Special recipes in hidden chests that spawn randomly throughout the world. Luck or avid adventurers will discover these rare finds.
    • Seasonal Recipe: Every Event zone there should be a few special recipes for those who attend and put in the effort towards obtaining them. This is a great way for the developers to thank long-term players.
    • Side-Content Recipe: Arenas, Survival Towers, Raids, Challenges, Achievements could all have special recipes of their own to award!
    • Quest Recipe: Completing main story quests!


    Gear Tiers

    When Gear does not have a level, how can you tell how powerful it will be before you equip it and see for yourself when it scales? Gear Tier is a number that represents the power of the Gear. This number is based off of a variety of factors.
    • Tools and Facilities Used
    • Recipe Modifications
    • Crafter Rank
    • Gathering Materials


    Forge your Legend

    Part of the depth of this system is equipping yourself with gear that have performed Legendary Feats. Such as slaying X Zingaras, defeating X Elders. As a player levels, so does their gear, however players who achieve certain feats will notice their gear gaining additional power and abilities. This creates an intricate relationship between a player and their gear. Not only do players wish to craft the perfect customized arsenal, they also want to conquer powerful foes in order to raise the Legend and power of their gear. As a result, players become more attached to Gear, and will be reluctant to give it up unless they are sure they have found something much more powerful. However, gnogging your abilities onto another will preserve their Legend.

    Specialization

    Part of this crafting system is the ability to specialize. Rather than needing to be a Jack of All trades like the current system, players are given the freedom to pursue specific professions and excel at them. Someone can focus entirely on mining and black-smithing and create powerful gear and items. Since Gathering no longer requires levels, anyone can collect the materials required to manufacture gear. This allows trade specialization, where players can become masters in certain skills and recipes.

    Unification

    While specialization is a healthy component to this system, there are many players who wish to rank up in all of the various fields. These players gain special benefits as a reward for their time, dedication and effort in the form of unique recipes and boosts. These recipes combine aspects of the various skills in order to create powerful items.

    Market

    What does all of this mean for the V&H economy? Nothing could be healthier for the auction house than a large dose of variety. Players can actually make a name for themselves based on their specializations, titles and recipes. Everyone has a chance to break into the market. Players are constantly checking the Auction House to view rare items and materials they’ve never seen before, and peruse the product of rare recipes they have yet to discover. Perhaps a high-level player has created a Legend for her sword and wishes to sell it to the highest bidder? It can all be done.

    Conclusion

    If you've read all of this.. wow! I didn't expect anyone to do much more than skim. Once again, I realize this isn't that great of an idea. It's a large change that involves too much development. Hopefully this can inspire some other players to form their own ideas though. We really do need to figure out a solution. The goal of this system was to reduce the stress involved with Gathering and Crafting. Rather than making thousands of materials for levels and spending 2 minutes on making gear I tried to envision a way to make gear the center of crafting. Players need to spend time and care in making their gear. Players do not need to worry about their levels, instead they spend their time exploring the realms and discovering different materials, trying them out to see what stats they add and experiment to create the perfect build for them. It is about making gear personalized, and the process of creating gear unique to each individual.
    Last edited by Anarky; 16.07.2017 at 08:29.

  2. #2
    Royal Guardian
    Posts
    1,060
    Server
    EU1
    Chars
    GoGoGadgetGo
    Well fast simple fix would be to increase the base drop of materials on gathering. I think 4 mats could be a good start and 8 with crown. And make the nodes work with 1 click. Click on node, choose how many times you gather and then just commense. Also I think as we got 3 slots for supplies they could add a system to use more than 1 supply per gather to gather faster. Use 3 and you gather 3 times on 1 click. Add the complixity and challenge to crafting part and remove it from gathering wich is very boring.

  3. #3
    Royal Guardian
    Posts
    1,060
    Server
    EU1
    Chars
    GoGoGadgetGo
    And I think they could remove the levels from gathering alltogether. You find higher level materials as you progress thru the maps so not sure why there should be levels for gathering at all. Maybe make it so that discoveries can only be made in wild and until you have discovered the material you cannot gather it in Village.

  4. #4
    User
    Posts
    769
    Server
    EU1
    Chars
    ekimie
    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGadgetGo View Post
    Well fast simple fix would be to increase the base drop of materials on gathering. I think 4 mats could be a good start and 8 with crown. And make the nodes work with 1 click. Click on node, choose how many times you gather and then just commense. Also I think as we got 3 slots for supplies they could add a system to use more than 1 supply per gather to gather faster. Use 3 and you gather 3 times on 1 click. Add the complixity and challenge to crafting part and remove it from gathering wich is very boring.
    I like your supply idea, to select 3 and gather 3x. On a sidenote I would also like another 2 supplieslots, total 5, 1 for the common, for the found green, 1 for the bought/given green, 1 for the found blue and 1 for the bought/given blue. I have 8 stacks with bought blue/greens in my inventory because I dont have enough slots in the gatherbar and because found and bought greens/blues don;t stack.

  5. #5
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,397
    Server
    EU1
    Chars
    Majenta, Jena A, Arcola
    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGadgetGo View Post
    And I think they could remove the levels from gathering alltogether. You find higher level materials as you progress thru the maps so not sure why there should be levels for gathering at all. Maybe make it so that discoveries can only be made in wild and until you have discovered the material you cannot gather it in Village.
    This would make it impossible for players to play as villagers and not heroes. At present, it is possible for players to gather in their village without needing to level up combat. If you cannot gather in village without having first gathered in the wild, you would be unable to gather anything above (at the most) level 25 or so.
    If at first you do succeed - try not to look surprised!

    Find me in game as Majenta EU1

    Support : http://www.villagersandheroes.com/co...tomer-support/
    Terms of Service: http://www.villagersandheroes.com/terms-of-service/ and Forum Policies : https://forum.villagersandheroes.com...cement.php?a=2

  6. #6
    User
    Posts
    1,294
    Server
    US1
    Chars
    Snow Fairy
    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGadgetGo View Post
    And I think they could remove the levels from gathering alltogether. You find higher level materials as you progress thru the maps so not sure why there should be levels for gathering at all. Maybe make it so that discoveries can only be made in wild and until you have discovered the material you cannot gather it in Village.
    if we remove the levels for gathering we won't need discoveries for experience. we could change discoveries to another type of bonus or remove them entirely. It would be possible to stay in village and gather anything wanted without ever going anywhere. we would still get rares from the wild and nats to refill nodes so in that way gathering would be very much like it is now. this would be a great improvement on the current system in which gathering is hindered by levels, combat level, and supplies.

  7. #7
    User
    Posts
    1,294
    Server
    US1
    Chars
    Snow Fairy
    I like these suggestions and they fit together well overall. they would be a great improvement to gathering and crafting from what we now have.

    One thing I'd like to mention is that this will help players who do not want to level up gathering and crafting for combat related goals and quests. Personally I feel all three aspects should enhance the enjoyment of the rest of the game without our being forced to do them. Right now players are forced to participate in parts of the game they do not enjoy. this system would make gathering and crafting enjoyable and interesting.

  8. #8
    User Giruv's Avatar
    Posts
    58
    Server
    US2
    Chars
    Verrier, Zelena Moonlight, Urtear
    i like the general idea i always love a game with more luck(RNG). I'll start the crafting part, the other part will follow later

    - i don't want to remove the gear lvl, but I like the idea that lvl 1 crafter have the ability to craft lvl 1-79 gear and higher lvl crafter make the gear have better stats. I'd love something like specification of skill would be great I remember having something like talent tree for crafting on other games. That way crafting will make the gear have unique stats depending the path you take, more defense, more damage, attack speed, or give special abilities to the gear. With this talent tree the crafting mastery will have more meaning than just the ability to make better gear and more efficiency
    - Gear recipe, i'd like something more tidy instead of randomly putting things, so i would still like to see for example a sword will need 100 ore and 20 bugs, but they don't decide the ore neither the bug. So you can put any ore or bug but different type of ore give different stats and the higher the quality of the ore the better the stats is
    - Enchantment can be more interesting by giving runes more role in the game. Crafting a special rune that will increase stats or give special ability to the weapon, or finding a rare type of gem that you can put to the weapon to give another special ability.
    - I like you idea for gear that get stronger when you use it, but instead of scaling with your lvl, I prefer if the gear have can earn exp, lvl up and get stronger indefinitely.