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Thread: I am probably beating a dead horse too but can't help it...
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    User Blossom's Avatar
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    I am probably beating a dead horse too but can't help it...

    Wizzies and hunters got range for a huge compromise of its armor and health than other melee classes. I understand the devs have really invested a thoughtful amount of time and reason for the changes in calming charm. But I really wish to hear it from them, what are the logics really? The two classes known for better armor and health and healing too can pick target from a group and the two squishier classes can't? What is the logic behind giving range to these classes then if all they have to do is melee fighting.

    Suppose I am running a new pyrron zone, I tried to embrace the new changes as some are really awesome, and had a tedious run to kill all the bounties. I know it's tough but possible, I have no problem with that. But then comes the side quests and some of the main quests which requires now specific mobs in specific numbers to be killed. Note: the sidequests are not always active when we run a specific zone for the first time. And then suppose I have to kill 15 of some mobs, I have to kill 15 groups of mobs actually(imagine soloing 50-60 mobs for just one quest)! And so for each type of mob or each sidequest if one don't have all the quests simultaneously, which is a possibility because many questline give us to kill something in previous zones or so(like in knockroe village). So please someone answer me how these changes help in swift and flawless combat and why a warrior or priest despite of being specially designed for melee fighting have advantage over other two classes? Either make it even for all or don't have this advantage for any class. What good is the range for wizzies and hunters, if we have to fight melee then its no good anyway!!

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    User DaimTest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blossom View Post
    Wizzies and hunters got range for a huge compromise of its armor and health than other melee classes. I understand the devs have really invested a thoughtful amount of time and reason for the changes in calming charm. But I really wish to hear it from them, what are the logics really? The two classes known for better armor and health and healing too can pick target from a group and the two squishier classes can't? What is the logic behind giving range to these classes then if all they have to do is melee fighting.
    It's not melee/range - afterall, priests are now ranged as well. Hunters/Wizards traditionally have lower armor/defense in exchange for their DPS. Hunters and wizards both have MUCH higher dps than priest, and it IS higher than warrior.

    A different topic is the 'pull'. First, retreat/calm work completely differently than condemn. <Sorry, I don't know the warrior build, so cannot speak intelligently on it - but I DO know some about the others.> When I use condemn, it either works, or it doesn't. And if it doesn't - unlike calm/retreat - the entire mob comes after me. There's no retry. For me to use condemn at all costs 20 talent points. For me to use it to best effectiveness, it costs 40....FORTY. I have stopped using it. It just is not worth the cost.

    All of that said, before starfall, if I ran a zone AT level, it took me approximately 1.5-2 hrs. I can't speak about how long it takes to run pyrron zones after Starfall - my lvl is too high to make an accurate test of it. I CAN say that I run Rye faster - but, there are not teams of mobs, so I can run around most of them, if I don't want the xp. I HAVE run the higher lvl zones with a hunter, a wizard, a warrior - all on separate occassions. I can state that as before, priests ARE definitely the slowest class to complete a zone.

  3. #3
    User Blossom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaimTest View Post
    It's not melee/range - afterall, priests are now ranged as well. Hunters/Wizards traditionally have lower armor/defense in exchange for their DPS. Hunters and wizards both have MUCH higher dps than priest, and it IS higher than warrior.

    A different topic is the 'pull'. First, retreat/calm work completely differently than condemn. <Sorry, I don't know the warrior build, so cannot speak intelligently on it - but I DO know some about the others.> When I use condemn, it either works, or it doesn't. And if it doesn't - unlike calm/retreat - the entire mob comes after me. There's no retry. For me to use condemn at all costs 20 talent points. For me to use it to best effectiveness, it costs 40....FORTY. I have stopped using it. It just is not worth the cost.

    All of that said, before starfall, if I ran a zone AT level, it took me approximately 1.5-2 hrs. I can't speak about how long it takes to run pyrron zones after Starfall - my lvl is too high to make an accurate test of it. I CAN say that I run Rye faster - but, there are not teams of mobs, so I can run around most of them, if I don't want the xp. I HAVE run the higher lvl zones with a hunter, a wizard, a warrior - all on separate occassions. I can state that as before, priests ARE definitely the slowest class to complete a zone.
    Range maynot be directly related to pull, but indirectly is. Ranged classes have low armor because in theory they have an advantage of killing a mob before it can attack, but in pyrron it isn't so. In starfall the health is incredibly improved which is why my wiz can run zones killing bounties with some difficulty, but it's possible. But my complain is for every side-kill-quests it is not legitimate to have almost whole zone wiped clean just to kill a specific type of bounty. With this new patch I hoped that my wiz will be more independent in combat and fast too, but to my disappointment I still need help of a warrior or priest.

    I have heard from a few friends that condemn doesn't guarantee 100% mob isolation anymore but it works most of the times(more than 90% I've heard). I've seen warriors pull mobs too. Calm was an indispensable spell which made my wiz survive. I agree she not as squishy as before but still squishier than any other class. If calm can't be brought back as it was then there must be other alternative to pull a bounty, otherwise killing in same zone over and over is killing me.
    Last edited by Blossom; 04.10.2017 at 08:54.

  4. #4
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    Everyone can have almost as much armor/defense as they now want. Its just matter of choosing right stats for your build. Ofc you then sacrifice damage but its always a trade off. I would say there no longer are classes with weak defense there is just choises you make on how to build your character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGadgetGo View Post
    Everyone can have almost as much armor/defense as they now want. Its just matter of choosing right stats for your build. Ofc you then sacrifice damage but its always a trade off. I would say there no longer are classes with weak defense there is just choises you make on how to build your character.
    this may be true in theory but there are limitations that must be accounted for, making it impossible for 'everyone to have almost as much armor/defense as they want' by simply adding the right stats. there are limits to how much any stat can be boosted, and if one stat is boosted something else is sacrificed. Hunters and wizards need help with their classes in order to effectively run these zones now that they can no longer rely on retreat or mind spark.

    Adding a substantial cooldown to retreat (and mind spark formerly known as calm) means these classes have suffered a substantial nerf in a favored and much used feat. these feats served the vital and necessary purpose of getting hunters and wizards through the Pyrron zones, specifically the linked mob groups. they were so used that it would be hard to find anyone who didn't use them prior to Starfall.

    while it is true some things have been added to both hunters and wizards to make them better, those improvements do not go far enough to counter the loss of retreat and mind spark as they were formerly used. however much anyone would like to disagree with that, the fact remains that players are having a great difficulty getting through these zones. I believe the players who say they are not able to run those zones effectively. they report taking too much time, using too many pots and buffs and dying too often, especially compared to before Starfall and to other zones without the linked mob feature.

    the general observation of 'they are better now' without the hard data and facts to back that up is not helpful. when it is suggested they are built wrong, don't know how to make a build or are unaware of basic facts in running their toons, such as needing to balance both armor and damage that is not at all useful to an honest and open-minded discussion.

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    Why would you use calming charm on a wizz in the pyrron zones? I just ran straight into packs and alternated shockwave and fireburst to stun-lock while i killed them with inferno and fireball. I would clear a zone at level in under 1 hour.
    They nerfed stuns when they updated but the tactic should still be viable as long as you stay at lvl.
    I havn't really bothered with that after starfall since I can just stack defence on my gear but if you want to try i would suggest:
    skills: Fireburst, inferno, fireball
    talents: http://www.villagersandheroes.com/ta...0,0,0,0,10,0,0
    (follow up with cauterize or master of the arcane)
    gear: 30-40% protection put the rest into Savagery, brutality, will, clarity and maybe expertise
    trinkets: crit, dodge or health

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illuthas View Post
    Why would you use calming charm on a wizz in the pyrron zones? I just ran straight into packs and alternated shockwave and fireburst to stun-lock while i killed them with inferno and fireball. I would clear a zone at level in under 1 hour.
    They nerfed stuns when they updated but the tactic should still be viable as long as you stay at lvl.
    I havn't really bothered with that after starfall since I can just stack defence on my gear but if you want to try i would suggest:
    skills: Fireburst, inferno, fireball
    talents: http://www.villagersandheroes.com/ta...0,0,0,0,10,0,0
    (follow up with cauterize or master of the arcane)
    gear: 30-40% protection put the rest into Savagery, brutality, will, clarity and maybe expertise
    trinkets: crit, dodge or health
    thank you, I will look into this for my alt.